Please spell TRUMPET correctly. If you look in a dictionary you will find that the end of trumpet has only one "t."Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
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Please spell TRUMPET correctly. If you look in a dictionary you will find that the end of trumpet has only one "t."Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
Wow, couldn't give me a decent rebuttal? Had to point out an extra letter I put in "trumpet", guessing because you have nothing else. I figured after I basically explained in detail as to why I think Christianity is a joke, that you or someone would give me some factual information with an argument proving me wrong.
its also not the united states of christian jesusQuote:
Originally Posted by Crackersneckian
the gay marriage stuff, abortion legislation, etc... are all formed by opinions of christian denominations.
right wing ideology-christian ideology for the most part.
the war on drugs, the war against porn, etc... are all somewhat affected by the christian moral agenda.
We have a representative democracy. And if the majority of Americans are Christian, then the representatives are creating legislation that is in accordance to what their constituents want.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
This thread isn't about Christianity. Its about how much r13 can make you angry and prove you wrong. Then make you give a retort in anger. LPD buckeye got caught trying to be bill maher and he has nothing else to say. R13 will fight to the end to prove you wrong.
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Originally Posted by Burton13
I agree that changing the argument is not a good rebuttal (However we all (including you) do it from time to time)
I will freely admit I am not the best person to defend the Christian faith however you have notWhat you did was post Thomas Jefferson Quotes that supported your opinion (I suspect that you would not be quoting him so much when you argue for gun control)Quote:
"explained in detail as to why I think Christianity is a joke" - Burton13
What is your main beef with religion(Christianity) I assume that it is mainly political and more specifically stem cell related due to your illness and given your situation I can not blame you.......That being said IF your religion holds that life is sacred before birth then it does make things more compatated (I personally think that Abortion after a fetus aka unborn baby is viable outside the womb is not something that should be done for anything short of saving the mothers life) Getting back to the stem cell debate IF the cells are to be harvested from Fetuses that are to be destroyed anyway I do not think it is a bad thing (However I can see how that some are protesting the fact that the fetus is destroyed at all).
I am sure we have all been bugged by someone wanting to "save" us but IMHO it has never been 1/2 as bad as the atheist that trys equally as hard to renounce and reticule your faith.
Faith aka religion at its best inspires us to be better people
From another forum on the same topic:
sadic1 - You can tell that Christianity is weakening in America because this upswing of logic is producing so many positive trends in society, like a general sense of kindness, less violence and suicides, less divorce, more 2 parent households, less addictions, and greater honesty and ethics in business. Sadly, the underdeveloped countries and regions in Asia and Africa are getting more and more religious, which is a shame because in the past, they set the standard for positivity, productivity, and general global success, and they are in grave danger of losing that.
I never said it was United States of Christian Jesus but that's ok if you say so. As far as war on drugs and porn IMO that good because I think that these things are dangerous for kids to be around. The thing that grips me is that people like yourself want christianity abolished but the people you call christians hasn't said they want your beliefs abolished. You can still be gay, look at porn, take your drugs, or if you get pregnant you can find a place to get a abortion, so go knock yourself out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggin
"Hey Gotch, what planet did you just come from, alot of the things you said has risen in the past few years. "
Oh boy...........................................
i?ro?ny (r-n, r-) KEY
NOUN:
pl. i?ro?nies
The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to their literal meaning.
An expression or utterance marked by a deliberate contrast between apparent and intended meaning.
A literary style employing such contrasts for humorous or rhetorical effect. See Synonyms at wit 1.
Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: "Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated" (Richard Kain).
An occurrence, result, or circumstance notable for such incongruity. See Usage Note at ironic.
Dramatic irony.
Socratic irony.
The War on Drugs has been the biggest waste of American Dollars in our history. We imprison more people than anybody in the world, mostly for stupid stuff. The fact that one cent of a tax dollar could go to put somebody in jail for doing drugs sickens me. If you want to do cocaine have it, just stay out of my way. When they break other laws, robbery, murder, etc, go after them then. You all will say that when people are high on drugs they will commit more crimes, and granted this is true, but countries who have these policies coupled with very strict gun laws don't have near the murder rate we currently do. I'll go to the grave trying to figure out why people think it's ok to have a gun around a child and not a joint. Plain idiotic imo.
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Originally Posted by Counts
I quoted several people, the only ones that seem to sink in are T.J. I like using TJ in that argument anyways because its always "the founding fathers built this nation of Christianity", when that's obviously not the case.
No, it really doesn't have much to do with politics or stem cells honestly - though that definitely solidifies it in some ways. I've been around it/in it my whole life, so I was definitely exposed, but I really just have stepped, looked, read, thought and come to the conclusion that I think its all a bunch of crap. It's far fetched to begin with, asking questions really isn't too "good" and its really them having an answer for everything, but not really answering anything - if you get what I'm saying.
The stem cells have been an important issue for about 6 years now, so I've felt that way about that for awhile and has little to do with it - but again just goes back to the getting in the way of rationalization. There really is only those kind of stem cells, the ones that would be thrown away. Embryonic stem cells come from those fertilization procedures, I'm sure you know how it works...they make so many embryos, implant a few in you and people usually stop after they have ever how many kids they want(a lot of the time, they're just happy with 1, maybe 2) then you can either turn the freezer off, use them all like the octuplet mom or donate them for stem cell research. So since most people who do this aren't crazy and use them all, there's usually plenty left over...so throw them away or donate them so possibly one day some people can walk again, cure their disease maybe and really a huge amount of possibilities. Now to me, that shouldn't be an issue at all. I mean I'm not saying force people to give them after they're done, but why in the world would you just throw them away...it "killing" either way if you want to look at it that way. So again, I have no idea how that is an issue and it shouldn't be.
And I disagree that the atheist are worse, of course some impose their "non-belief" on people like a lot of christians. But they aren't as bad as shaping legislation here, that effects everyone here...not just getting into an argument and them saying "you're wrong..blah, blah, blah."
It's the way you worded that last part that proves my point. "At its best", hardly anyone does everything they are supposed to pertaining to religion. That's true, it does inspire people to do good - the reason I love Jesus still, because he has inspired people to do good. But there's a difference in asking "what would jesus do?" and actually doing what Jesus would do. Just because a person believes in God, doesn't mean they have all these morals and aren't bad people...going back to a few posts ago about the prison population and the atheist nations. It may inspire people to do good or in better words tell you what's right and wrong, but that does mean you'll follow the righteous path and do right. I think religion was created to "keep the peace" and later on, money, money, money.
People who claim our nation wasn't founded on Christian principles, simply believe what they watch on television to much imo.
the ideology of the time of the birth of the united states was singular, meaning no other religions, aside from quakers and such, were involved in the creation of the united states.
but when the country grows and more people deflect from the basic ideological set, you cant govern based on those religious principles alone, because of the rights of the minority and such
and if you think christian policies arent dictated in american life, then i think your head is in the sand.
stem cell research, putting porn directors in jail, etc...
and cant people who believe otherwise still instill good morals? or is it just restricted to christians being able to teach a child "right"?
It's a pretty big struggle with me, obviously, we were founded by Christians. I personally believe in God, was raised in a Baptist Church, but have no problem with other people believing otherwise. From a moral point of view, I oppose gay marriage (have no problem with Civil Unions), abortion, etc but understand from a government point of view that I can't dictate my morals to other people, nor should the United States Government.
It wasn't, they were the same..but it wasn't part of common law like TJ said. It was common sense laws...you don't see that you have to be respect to your father and mother in there? Have any other Gods other then the Christian God? And others of course, shouldn't those be laws since it was founded on Christianity? Its not because it wasn't, the no killing, stealing are common sense laws and laws that have to be in order to keep peace and have a working nation.Quote:
Originally Posted by pvfan
And another one would be the "War on drugs", it's from Christianity and what's causing the stupid laws against Marijuana. The nation should have learned its lesson from the prohibition days.
I'd love to hear how you think it wasn't, the original charter of the Virginia Colony talked about propagating the Christian Religion, 11 of the 13 colonies had laws saying you had have firm belief in Jesus and the Bible to serve in public office, 50 men who formed the Constitution were Christians, I could go on but you get my point.
thats all people like me are asking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by pvfan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
You know even if I disagree with you I can respect your opinion on most things but that comment is horse s#!t
Look no further than China which discurges all religions and see how they handle there war on drugs
If you want to say Christians are cheafly behind the Anti-Abortion movement or Gay-Marrage than I would agree with you but come on!!!
As for the rest we will have to agree to disagree . I do hope you views on religion do not become as Jaded as my views on Politics however the 2 do share many of the same trates in that as I stated before at there best both can do great things but at its worst they can become twisted and corrupt. That does not mean that Christionaty is bad any more than it means that Democery is bad.
And I WILL continue to strongly dissagree with you about pushy Athists (I have been hit up by both sides and while I don't like getting pushed by anyone only one group seemed to have my best intrests at heart)
Look you are still a young man in another 10-15 years you may feel differant (heck so may I ) all I will say is that reguardless what your religus beleafs are I think you should be quick to share and slow to push your belefes of try to tear down others.
They're reasoning is that somewhere in the Bible it says that drugs are a sin and they're bad for you. I'm not saying it's like an abortion issue, but it certainly does stem from it(Didn't Jerry Falwells "Moral Majority" fuel it back in the 80's) and politicians "say" that's it. Now do you really think they believe its morally wrong or just because they can't make money on it? The "war on drugs" - which is here and started here in America - has became a joke. If they could tax it without backlash from the religious community, you better believe it'd all be legal..along with prostitution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Counts
I wasn't rebutting you because I didn't even read your argument. Please don't flatter yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
It's just pretty damn annoying after the past 6 years of posting here that people still do not know how to spell a simple word.
Okay, I understand that it doesn't have to be losing faith outright but why did you say that the information provided in the airticle was a good thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
You are right. It doesn't mean that one lacks morals if he or she isn't Christian.Quote:
Suprbeast hit the nail right on the head. Just because you believe in Christianity doesn't mean you have morals or the opposite. The 85% of the prison population who believe in Christianity would hold that to be true or the Atheist nations who have the lowest murder and teen pregnancy rates would hold that to be true also. 2/3's of the world isn't Christian, that doesn't mean they aren't smart or have no morals.
Is that the fault of the faith itself or is it the fault of those who misinterpret the faith? I go with number 2.Quote:
"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity." Thomas Jefferson
Okay, a lot of those quotes are opinionated ones, so I can't touch those. But the quote by Clarke is one I want to touch. It's not the faith that should be faulted. It's the misinterpretation of the faith. Yes there are plenty of Christians that kill in the name of God. By doing that, the contradict Christianity. It isn't religion's fault that people kill in the name of it. I really do not buy into that quote.Quote:
Crackersneckian - I think Christianity and religion get in the way of rationalization most of the time, I've said that a million times. Its not like I wasn't brought up in it or don't know what it is, it's that reason why I don't think any of it is true. I do love Jesus btw. I don't really believe in God, that doesn't mean I'm not smart. I'll give you some quotes of some pretty smart people who have some of the same views...
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson
"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson
"Religion is a byproduct of fear. For much of human history, it may have been a necessary evil, but why was it more evil then necessary? Isn't killing people in the name of God a pretty good definition of insanity? - Arthur C. Clarke
"The Bible is not by book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian Dogma." - Abraham Lincoln
" I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul..No, all this talk of an existence for us, as individuals, beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of out tenacity of life - our desire to go on living..our dread of coming to an end." - Thomas Edison
"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." - Albert Einstein
" I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own..a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe a human survives the death of his body, although the feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotism." Albert Einstein
Fair enough, but on your last sentence, you said that Christianity drives more people away. I think it's the misinterpretation of Christianity that does that when people kill or do something else contrary to Christianity in the name of Christianity.Quote:
I'd think you'd agree that those were some smart people. This isn't a Christian nation IMO and wasn't found solely on Christianity, Jefferson said it isn't and has never been a part of common law. The nation was found on common sense, don't murder, lie, steal etc. That comes from common sense, not Christianity. Christianity drives more away then people just "losing faith". Just how I feel about it.
I disagree about the killing driving people away. If this were the case, Islam wouldn't be the fastest growing religion in the world. Religion has been corrupted by money for a long time and it'll only get worse, esp. with the amount Christianity takes in.
Its not so much the amount that Christianity takes in, as it is the amount catholicism takes in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Burton13
Okay, just going to respond to a couple of historical falsehoods I've seen:
1. mention of the "Crusades" as a negative event in Christian history. Between about 630 and 1095 Muslim Imperialism, through armed force, had taken and controlled more than (60% going by memory, seems like about 75%) of all the Christian world. This before the first "Crusade". Any historian worth a crap these days will admit (or if they actually know history will gladly inform you) that the "Crusades" were a completely defensive action taken for the purpose of self-survival.
2. Christians have killed millions throughout history: Yes and no. This depends upon if you want to consider events such as World War 2 etc. In fact less people were killed in the entire 356 year history of the Spanish Inquisition than Islamic terrorist kill in any given year. The depth of anti-Christian propaganda is easily detected on this subject as absurd and impossible totals are tossed around without any actual research.
I'm finally glad you chimed in, Gotch.
you're one of the few, who will actually have researched facts and data.
Burton13, did you watch Religulous and that get you on this anti-Christian kick?
I myself, am totally against "organized religion". I don't think you have to have somebody telling you, how to live, where to go, etc, etc...
I have a good relationship with God, and I have my spirituality and faith.
But the thing is, almost every religion is the same... just different words, different names for people, and the stories twisted around a little bit.
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Originally Posted by Burton13
Then why is it not legal in China?
I am not saying that most Christian groups are not against legalization of drugs (not sure if we are talking Marijuana only or all drugs at this point) because they are however I suspect that if you were to go to your local Lines club (1st thing that popped into my mind LOL) and ask there official Poisson on drug legalization I bet that they will also be against it now does that mean that our drug laws are shaped by the Norton Lions Club?
Now this next part is my opinion ONLY but I THINK one of the biggest reasons mind altering drugs are illegal is the fact that it makes the population tougher to control and I have to believe that the Government wants its people to be productive in a way that they can guide and drug use makes that tougher
Thanks STEER,
Sometimes I have a problem with people being completely blinded by their indoctrination into "politically correct" thinking.
Terrorism aside: how many know that there are more people living in slavery today than at any other time in human history?
How many know that a hugely disapportionate number of those "owning" slaves are Muslim?
I love it, when you get on a discussion. You provide some great facts, and it's fun to learn some history lessons....when you get started up lol
up to Counts... I've heard this from a few who are in the drug world, etc... even people who do the drugs and deal them, say they don't want it legalized, bc then, it will drive their money making schemes down the whole.
Everybody always think it's just the "religious" people who are against legalizing drugs, but in reality it's the ones that do it, and then a host of other people.
People who have no faith in God, or some God...don't want to have faith because they want to believe that their actions have no consequenses. Simple as that.
People like r13 lobby for every special interest group (ie gays, abortion, etc) because they want to draw attention to themselves. He just wants to bait people into an argument. If 99% of the world were atheist he'd be the biggest Christian of the 1%.
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Originally Posted by Shooter
That is simply not true, whatsoever. I have no faith, because I believe in science, and the human body, and the natural world. Thats horseshit what you said, its the typical christian anti-atheist propoganda.
and gotch, ive collected that anywhere from 4500-6000 people were executed in the inquisitions. im not sure on the amount of deaths caused by muslim terrorists in a year, but you are really misleading people if you get your facts,from a website such as this, TheReligionofPeace.com - Islam: Making a True Difference in the World an obvious anti-muslim website. i could not find accurate numbers on those killed every year by muslim terrorists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gotch
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggin
IMHO you can not put EVERYONE into one neat box I DO agree that many do not want religion becouse it would mean that they would need to answer to a higher power than themself......2nd your quote that since you belive in science you have no faith (religion?) IMHO that is anti-religion propoganda since I FULLY belive in science AND God. Too many on both sides think that they know more than they do about the subject (I know that there is a heck of alot I do not know and probably as much more I don't even know I don't know LOL)
I AM interested in knowing why you think that understanding science excludes you from haveing faith?
because i choose to believe that the earth has evolved from amoeba's and monkeys, instead of a creation theory.
its not understanding science that makes me have no faith, its like my faith is in science, and science is based on factual evidence.
and its not meant to be anti-religion propoganda, i was just stating what I but my belief into.
The problem with believe in science is that the science of evolution is not factual, but actual theory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggin
thats why i didnt say facts, i said it had some factual evidence, and it is just a theory, like any other belief on how this world came to be.
Not sure why you assume I got info for that site? I am familiar with the site, but no, that's not where it came from. In fact most came from memory. I've debated this in extreme depth on another forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggin
Your numbers are still to high. More like 3,000 to 5,000 max.
This has been a slow year for Islamic terrorists, but they are still doing fairly good business. I haven't checked the numbers since the first week of March (last time I was debating the issue) but at that time (about 10 weeks into the year) there were 1,034 confirmed deaths due to Islamic terror. Get out the old casio and you'll see that I am correct.
^ In fact with my typo's misspellings and poor grammar it should be apparent that my info is not purely "web" gathered.
Ill post links to what Ive posted, ive even seen some sites (grim amusements / June 17, 2004 / the inquisition's death count) put it at somewhere near 25k, which i dont believe, but Im pretty sure the standard is around 5K, which is almost exactly what your deaths from islamic terror would average out to with the numbers given (10 weeks x 5), 1000 x 5.
this site seems pretty reliable and it said 6000 was a good estimate.
How many people were actually killed during the Inquisition?
and im curious to know why you visit a racist, stereotypical site like that? its like viewing a KKK page. i never pegged you as much of a racist.
and if its not info that has been published, im sorry to sound rude, but how can i believe anything when you have no facts? im supposed to just say, you are right because you are smart? im sorry, but i like getting information i can double check at different places.
and that quote i posted of yours earlier, came directly off that anti muslim website.
"In fact less people were killed in the entire 356 year history of the Spanish Inquisition than Islamic terrorist kill in any given year" ?
I assure you I posted that in my own words, and without even looking at a source.
Is it word for word?
I don't consider that site racist btw, in fact it's not. It is radical, but not racist. Huge difference. Cannot by any means be compared to a truly ractist group. Far too easy to simply dismiss someone with a different point of view by simply calling them a ractist. Weak arguement.